DAK : Tigers in 15th Panzer division ?

Well, we find (in the "Desert Fox" rulebook) that 15th Pz div can have Pz VI Tiger(s) in it's army list. The text tell us the 15th Pz div got some of the 504 sPzAbt in early April.

I found that the first 3 Tigers (sPz Abt 501) saw action in Afrika in December 42, east of Dschedeida. It seem they were affected to Pz Reg 7 of von Arnim's 10th Pz div... as well as some others, sent later. In February 1943, the first 3 Tigers of sPz Abt 504 were sent to Tunis and were united with the 11 remaining Tigers from sPz Abt 501. 5 more Tigers reached Bizerta by March 23 and 2 by April 1. All reports about Tigers suggest they were all attached to 10th Pz div.

I've just found that, in February 21th, Rommel asked von Arnim for some Tigers... with von Arnim sending just Inf reg 47! In April, the remnants of the 15th Pz were about 20km north from 10th Pz, with the Jäger-Division Hermann Göring between them. In early April, an action around Enfidaville was taken, but I found no info about Tigers (furthermore, it seem that the unit involved was the 90 and/or 164 leichte Afrikadivision).

I also found 1 note about 5 Tigers in 5.PzArmee and 7 at DAK on April 43. As 90 and 164 leichte Afrikadivision belonged to DAK, does that mean the Tigers in DAK were around Enfidaville ?

Does anyone have any information about Tigers... really in the 15th Pz Div ?

I hope to give you tonight de answer for that question.


Greetz ice

03/??/42: Production of F2 begins, or at least F1s upgraded with L/43.P4V-p????
04/15/42: Hitler is presented with F2 and approves.P4V-p51
05/??/42: 9 F2's shipped to N. Africa. Held in reserve at first. 1 more (that broke down in Italy) was shipped "later".PT1-p181
05/25/42: 5th Pz. Reg. official inventory includes no F2s.TAKAOH-p27
05/26/42 ~ 05/28/42: 4 F2's assigned to 5th Pz. Reg., but without ammunition (or at least without AP ammunition).
05/26/42 - 07/20/42: 2 F2's damaged beyond repair PT1-p180.
05/27/42 ~ 06/10/42: Up to 19 F2's may have been used at Bir Hacheim. Rommel's own notes indicate these were not available due to lack of ammunition. Perhaps the ammunition did arrive before the final assault on Bir Hacheim, or perhaps there has been a mistranslation or contemporary misunderstanding -- maybe they only lacked a certain type of ammo, like AP. In addition to the opinion expressed by Avalon Hill Game Designer Harold Hock, there also exists a photograph that clearly shows two or three wrecked F2's lined up side by side. According to author Richard Holmes, these were "towed to a roadside dumping ground near Bir Hacheim"AOR-p145 BHDC-p127.
05/28/42, evening: 5th Pz. Reg. has 4 operational F2's on front.PT1-p????
06/11/42: 6 F2's available (The Battle for North Africa 1940-43).
06/12/42: "Several" F2's available
06/28/42 ~ 07/28/42: A "number" of IV's arrive in N. Africa.RBAC-p130,150
07/01/42 - 08/31/42: 20 G's shipped to N. Africa.PT1-p????
08/??/42: 30 Specials in active service AOR-p153 -- may not account for losses and/or those being repaired
08/15/42: 5th Pz. Reg. official organization includes total of 10 Specials.TAKAOH-p28 8th Pz. Reg. official organization includes total of 8 Specials.TAKAOH-p17
08/30/42: 5th Pz. Reg. has 14 operational Specials.PT1-p???? TIC-p79-80 8th Pz. Reg. has 13 operational F2s.PT1-p???? TIC-p79-80 Total of 27 Specials available (Rommel's War in Africa).
08/31/42: 15th Pz. Div. looses 2 Specials.PT1-p???? TIC-p94-95????
10/21/42, evening: 8th Pz. Reg. equipment returns include 14 Specials.TAKAOH-p122
10/23/42: 5th Pz. Reg. official inventory includes total of 15 Specials.TAKAOH-p30 TIC-p99 RBAC-p???? 8th Pz. Reg. official inventory (including evening equipment returns) includes total of 15 F2s in its 1st and 2nd Battalions' 2 Med. Pz. Companies, with 8 in one and 7 in the other.TAKAOH-p21,110 TIC-p99 RBAC-p????
10/25/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 5 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
10/26/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 6 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
10/27/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 2 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
10/28/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 3 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
10/29/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 4 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
10/31/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 3 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
11/01/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 5 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
11/04/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 1 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
11/05/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 1 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
11/08/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 0 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
11/13/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 1 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
11/18/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 1 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
11/19/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 1 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
11/20/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 1 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
11/21/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 3 Specials.TAKAOH-p110 8th Pz. Reg. equipment returns include 6 Specials.TAKAOH-p124 TAKAOH-124 seems to conflict with TAKAOH-110 unless there were new arrivals and they weren't counted as returns.
11/22/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 2 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
11/23/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 2 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
11/24/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 3 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
11/25/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 3 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
11/26/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 1 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
11/27/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 1 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
11/28/42, evening: 15th Pz. Div. equipment returns include 1 Specials.TAKAOH-p110
01/15/43: New 5th Pz. Reg. 1st Battalion (initially known as "Grun Panzer Battalion") formed in Tunisia equipped with 17 Specials.TAKAOH-p30
01/17/43: All tanks from original 5th Pz. Reg. transferred to 8th Pz. Reg. and redesignated 8th Pz. Reg. 2nd Battalion.TAKAOH-p30
08/??/43: British write School of Tank Technology Report 15. Subject: G with F turret, chassis 83072. Captured in the "Middle East" after it drove a total of 301 miles.STT15-p1


I hope that this is what you're searching for


Greetz Ice

Thanks for this... but everything seem to be related to Pz IV... not Pz VI.
Am I wrong ?

Well, what's the TAKAOH source ?

The Afrika Korps, An Organizational History 1941-1943

Panzer VI

TIGER

First introduced in early 1943 for Manstein's abortive attempt to break the 6th Army out of Stalingrad, the Pz VI Tiger is probably the most famous tank of WW2 if not of all time. It was Germany's first attempt to put its devastating 88mm anti-aircraft/anti-tank gun into a tank. While the gun functioned superbly, the superheavy Tiger tank suffered from a lack of mobility and from reliability problems caused by its rush into production. Still, the Tiger served well throughout the last two years of the war.

Tigers and Panthers, North Africa, Italy, Russia

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IIRC, back in .5 (can't remember exactly), the Germans had Tigers in the North Africa maps. This being historically accurate was also the one balancing factor on a good deal of those maps. Now with the Tigers gone from North Africa look at what has happened. The British have vastly superior tanks to the Germans at the moment and win any tank battle easily on those maps. Pzr IV 75mm L/24 guns are no match for MatildaII's, and Valentines, much less Shermans and Churchills. Even the F2 lacks sufficient firepower to have a direct confrontation with the British tanks.

According to my sources the number of Tigers used in Africa are as follows

Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 501 was one of the two Tiger battalions promised to Field Marshal Erwin Rommel in Summer 1942. Nov 42-Jan43

The Strength of the battalion was:

25 PzIII(75), and 20 PzVI (Tiger)

Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 504 was shipped to Afica in Mar-Apr43

19 PzIII(lg), and 11 PzVI (Tiger):

Now because of teething problems and lack of repair parts for damaged Tigers, the Tiger Battalions were never at full Strength but it did see Operations in Tunisia. So, disregarding replacements shipped at later dates, we have 31 Tigers operational in Africa (not a large number by any means but the Germans never had large numbers to begin with)

31 Panzerkampfwagen Mark VI "Tiger" operational in Africa

I am fairly certain that the Italian front will be added in .7 or later. Now I am sure the Italians will have their own battles and such but seeing has how the Germans played a large part in Italy here is the Tigers and Panthers operational in Sicily and Italy.

After being pulled out of Russian in July 1943 in response to the Allied landings in Sicily, Panzer-Grenadier-Division "LSSAH" was refitted and sent to Italy in August 1944. Attached to this division was parts of the new schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung of the I.SS-Panzer-Korps "Leibstandarte" with 27 Tigers.. None of the 27 Tigers were lost in Italy before they were shipped back to the Eastern Front.

Before Sicily was lost, Tigergruppe Meyer with a total of 8 Tigers. Responding to the Allied bridgehead at Anzio were 45 Tigers of Schwere-Panzer-Abteilung 508 along with 76 Panthers of the I.Abteilung/Panzer-Abteilung 4. 11 Ferdinands were also used.

Thus, in Italy we have

August 43

27 Tigers of the 1.u.2.Kp./s.SS-Panzer-Abteilung

8 Tigers of Tigergruppe Meyer

Feb 44

45 Tigers of the s.Panzer-Abteilung 508

June 44

1 Tiger of the s.Panzer-Abteilung 504

So unless I am missing further reinforcements, we have

81 Panzerkampfwagen Mark VI "Tiger" in Italy

76 Panzerkampfwagen Mark V "Panther" in Italy (mostly Ausf A with a few Ausf D)

Now slightly off topic here before I talk about Tiger II's is the fact of the glaring weakness (or should I say strengths of the allied tanks) compared to the Tiger I.

Various sources say that the Tiger I frontally armor protection was

Front 75mm M3 M61

Mantlet 0m
Turret 0m
Superstructure 0m
Hull 0m

Right now however the 75 penetrates the Tiger rather effectively

Front 76mm M1A1 M62
Mantlet 100m
Turret 700m
Superstructure 600m
Hull 400m

This is the gun carried on the Jumbo. As you can see it still had to be awfully close to have any real chance of penetrating a Tiger frontally. Now in my experiences in game, not only can the Jumbo take a hell of a pounding from the 88 but it also dishes it out very well. Some shots seem to do next to nothing while others nearly KO the Tiger. Personally I think something is wrong with that but hey next topic

The Tiger II in game is not on a single Eastern Front map why? Another issue is that on quite a few Western maps (most noticed is on Bocage) the Tiger I makes no appearance nor does the Panther for that matter.

Panther Strengths in the West as far as I can tell are as follows

Abteilung Assigned to Strength Month

I./SS-Pz.Rgt.12 12.SS-Pz.Div. 79 June
I./Pz.Rgt.6 Pz.-Lehr-Div. 89 June
I./Pz.Rgt.3 2.Pz.Div. 79 June
I./SS-Pz.Rgt.9 9.SS-Pz.Div. 79 June
I./SS-Pz.Rgt.1 1.SS-Pz.Div. 79 July
I./SS-Pz.Rgt.2 2.SS-Pz.Div. 79 July

Total

484

So, as you can see 484 Panthers were in immediate response to the Allied landings in Normandy in June 6th 1944

Then, after the Breakout from Normandy, the following were sent from August to October 1944

Abteilung Assigned to Strength Month

I./Pz.Rgt.15 11.Pz.Div. 79 August
Pz.Abt.2105 Pz.Brig.105 36 September
Pz.Abt.2106 Pz.Brig.106 36 September
Pz.Abt.2107 Pz.Brig.107 36 September
Pz.Abt.2108 Pz.Brig.108 36 September
I./Pzr.Rgt.16 Pzr.Brig.111 45 September
I./Pzr.Rgt.29 Pzr.Brig.112 45 September
I./Pzr.Rgt.130 Pzr.Brig.113 45 September
I./Pzr.Rgt.10 10.SS-Pz.Div. 15 October

Total

373

Later during the Ardennes offensive varying number of Panthers were sent to take part.

Tiger I and Tiger II strength in the West was

1.s.Pz.Kp
3 Tiger I, 5 Tiger II
June44

s.SS-Pz.Abt.101
45 Tiger I
June44

s.SS-Pz.Abt.102
45 Tiger I
July44

s.Pz.Abt.503
33 Tiger I, 12 Tiger II
July44

1.Kp/s.SS-Pz.Abt.101
14 Tiger II
August44

Pz.Abt.503
14 Tiger II
August44

s.Pz.Kp.Hummel
14 Tiger I
Oct44

s.Pz.Abt.506
45 Tiger II
Oct44

Pz.Abt.(Fkl)301
31 Tiger I, 66 BIV (?)
Nov44

s.SS-Pz.Abt.501
45 Tiger II
December44

s.Pz.Abt.507
21 Tiger II
March45

3.Kp./s.Pz.Abt.510
8 Tiger II
March45

3.Kp./s.Pz.Abt.F11
Tiger II
March45

Who can forget Michael Wittman and Villers-Bocage, yet because of the inaccurate representation of Bocage there are no Tigers K

The Tiger II’s sent to the Eastern front are as follows (Tiger I seem to be represented in FH well in the east so I wont list them)

s.H.Pz.Abt.501
45 Tiger II
August44

s.H.Pz.Abt.505
45 Tiger II
September44

s.H.Pz.Abt.503
45 Tiger II
October44

s.H.Pz.Abt.509
45 Tiger II
January45

s.SS-Pz.Abt.503
39 Tiger II
January45

s.SS-Pz.Abt.501
32 Tiger II
February4

s.SS-Pz.Abt.502
31 Tiger II
March1945

So as you can see there were a good deal of Tiger II on the Eastern Front.

For most of you this will probably seem like a lot of numbers, but for those of you who care this is the accurate numbers of Tigers used. In FH they are not nearly as represented (I am not saying I want 45 Tiger II’s on a map but rather their aren’t enough maps that portray these as they were used in combat).


I hope this is it.



Greetz Ice

What a library you are !
I found this TAKAOH in the web... but this is "self edited book". Damn'd, where did you find that ?

Well, the main thing I'm looking for, is an action, in Afrika, where Tigers were in command of the 15th Pz Div. (just because Desert Fox book allow thye 15th Pz Div to have Tigers... and I was unable to find out any evidence of Pz VI in that formation).

from Osprey Military New Vanguard Tiger I

504th was second Tiger Unit sent to Tunisia.
The first 3 arrived in Tunisia on 12 march 1943, followed by 5 on 22/23 march, 2 on the1st of april and the last of 11 on 16 april. No word on the 15th panzer div.